Senator Bernie Sanders, independent of Vermont, member of the Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee.
INTERVIEW on COUNTDOWN w Keth Olbermann -
OLBERMANN: the phony protests and the sycophants applauding the phony protest, do the the tactics surprise you at all?
SANDERS: No, not at all. The fact of the matter is that these people talk about freedom and what they are doing is trying to disrupt meetings, which is the absolute opposite of what freedom of discussion is about. And the reason for that is they are afraid to debate the real issues, the fact that we have a disintegrating health care system, that we have tens of millions uninsured, underinsured, 18,000 Americans die every year because they don't get to a doctor on time. We got a million Americans this year going bankrupt because of medically-related bills.
And these people are screaming and yelling so we can't have a real discussion of the real issues.
OLBERMANN: Presuming you have to win both on the issues and the screaming and yelling, how do you win on the screaming and yelling when that is spun as the rage of average Americans in most of the media?
SANDERS: Well, you know, it gets back to the media doing what they did in Iraq, which is distorting reality. You remember, during the debate in Iraq, Keith, we were told that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and Iraq was working with al Qaeda. Well, it turned out not to be true.
And what these guys are doing, what they are saying is grossly untrue. They are talking about a government takeover of health care. Untrue. They are talking-if you can believe this in 2009 -- about the president of the United States wanting to kill off older people.
So the answer is: if you want to have a real debate on the real issues, let's do it. Let's ask for example why countries around the world are providing better quality of care than we are at ½ the cost. Let's ask why we are the only nation in the industrialized world that does not have a national health care program guaranteeing all of their people. Those are the kinds of questions that we've got to be debating.
OLBERMANN: A question about Senator Enzi of Wyoming. Last week, he said he wanted a guarantee that anything that came out of the finance committee ends up in the final legislation that's passed. And today, he's rejected the September 15th deadline for his committee to reach agreement on the bill.
Is this-are we seeing the outlines of the latest Republican plan, just never let the legislation out of committee?
SANDERS: Look, let's be clear. There are virtually no Republicans in the Senate who are serious about health care reform. That's the simple reality. And what they keep doing is stalling and stalling and stalling, and trying to confuse people.
Now, the truth of the matter is, the Democrats have not been particularly effective in also saying and stating the case as to why we need real health care reform. Bottom line is: the system is disintegrating. Bottom line is: we spent twice as much as any other country. Our outcomes are worse. Bottom line is: the vast majority of people want a public option among other reforms.
OLBERMANN: Another bottom line, though, is delaying this-just delaying this victory, is that victory enough for the health industries? I mean, how many million a day do they collectively profit that would go out the window if there was this public option that would tamp down insurance prices?
SANDERS: That's absolutely right. According to the papers just today, the health care industry has spent $130 million in the last quarter. And that is the reason why our private insurance companies are reaping huge profits, why the drug companies charge the American people, by far, the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs. Of course, they don't want health care reform. Of course, they'll do everything to try to stop us.
OLBERMANN: Last question, Senator, a prediction. Is this legislation eventually going to require passage by reconciliation?
SANDERS: Reconciliation is one of the tools that we have. My hope is that every Democrat will vote against the Republican filibuster, will pick up maybe one Republican, will do something serious and real for the American people.
OLBERMANN: Amen. Senator Bernie Sanders, the great independent of Vermont-once again, great thanks for your time tonight, sir.
SANDERS: It's good to be with you.
OLBERMANN: For more on how Democrats can handle the so-called grassroots protestors, let's turn to Democratic strategist Chris Kofinis.
Chris, good evening.
CHRIS KOFINIS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Good evening, Keith.
OLBERMANN: Does it really take that much to hijack a town hall meeting? And how do Democratic lawmakers or other Democratic speakers combat that?
KOFINIS: Unfortunately, it doesn't take a lot to disrupt these meetings and I think that's the whole point. Listen, the Republicans and these grassroots groups are clearly being backed by Republican groups and operatives. They have a very simple strategy, which is to delay, is to disrupt, is to disturb. It's basically that you take over these town halls and make them a media spectacle and create this facade of what is opposition.
The reality is: the overwhelming majority of Americans want health care reform. There may be clear disagreements or discussions about what kind of health care reform we need, but the notion that we don't need health care reform is laughable.
Now, in terms of what Democrats, I think, need to do, listen, it's a difficult thing. When you have a town hall, 150 people, 10 or 20 can disrupt that. Listen, my perspective is, a good strategy: shame-shame them.
And the way I think you can shame them, and I would suggest to every Democratic member of Congress that has one of these town halls, bring one of your constituents who have suffered through this health care crisis that can tell you a personal story, that can start that town hall telling them, telling those people in that audience what the consequences are when an insurance company cuts their coverage and their child couldn't get the treatment they needed. And let those protestors get up and fight that. I think that is a very powerful approach.
OLBERMANN: Would it to be of any use to sort of foster a backlash against the phony backlash to say, "Look, where exactly are you from? Have you ever been in this district before? Did you come here on a bus from another state?" Is that of any use in those situations, confront them?
KOFINIS: Well, I mean, I think-I think it helps but the problem is, you know, it's one of the things that I think the media is going to have to expose. I mean, what is clearly happening here is the Republicans know that the country has moved in a different direction. That it clearly wants to tackle these issues like health care reform.
So, they're trying to slow it down. You see that both in the legislative tactics they're using in Congress and now you're saying that now in these grassroots tactics. They did the same thing I think in a weird way that's very reminiscent to what happened back with the 2000 election, and now, you're seeing the very same thing, have small groups disrupt it.
I think, exposing them is a good thing, but it's not enough. I think you have to tackle it head on, basically disprove their lies and their falsehoods, because the reality is, when you explain to the American people the enormous benefits of this health care reform, it's going to control costs, that it's going to expand coverage, that we basically are going to tackle a problem that we cannot ignore anymore, people will support it-but you can't let a small group dominate the agenda or dominate that town hall in that case.
OLBERMANN: All right. If you take the August recess as kind of a collective town hall and media perceptions of town halls, you've got those, you've got TV/radio ads, you got stunts we probably can't even imagine, you got Rush Limbaugh who might as well be funded by the Republican Party reading whatever it is they hand him. Could this slip into a groove that cripples health care reform?
KOFINIS: Well, it's possible but, you know, I'm going to be optimistic about it. I think what you're seeing from the Democrats in terms of the strategy that's coming out of Congress, as well as the strategy out of the White House is a very aggressive strategy on multiple levels, both in the grassroots, the media, in terms of using, you know, OFA, which is the grassroots arm of the Obama campaign, as well as other progressive groups.
But let's make no mistake about it. This really is a battle for health care reform and in terms of the next four, six, eight weeks, it is the groups that are going to fight the hardest that I think are going to have an incredible influence in terms of who wins the agenda both at the media level as well as the legislative agenda.
So, this is a real challenge, I think, to progressive groups, Democrats, to go out there and fight for the health care reform we all know this country needs.
OLBERMANN: The Democratic strategist Chris Kofinis-as always, Chris, great thanks for your time tonight.
KOFINIS: Thanks, Keith.
OLBERMANN: Behind all of this, of course, is the money. And the great struggle in this American experiment: the people versus the corporation. As I suggested in my question to Senator Sanders, if the health care giants can afford to spend a reported $1,400,000 per day to thwart the public insurance option, how much are they making per day? And to whom is that money going?
Sadly, it is going to our politicians and in carload lots. Your assumption about the Republicans is correct, but there are also Democrats who have sold their soul, and I will call them out by name tonight in a "Special Comment" on health care.
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